Is Subud a teaching?
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Some members seem to regard Bapak’s poem ‘Susila Budhi Dharma’ as objective truth. There is a “cosmic” system of life forces, and our lives are dominated by the four “lower forces”, the material, the vegetable, the animal, and the human force. Apparently lifeless material objects are very much alive and has a strong influence on the mind of man, and the same applies to the other life forces.
This hierarchy of forces is also a main topic in many of Bapak’s talks, which Bapak’s daughter Rahayu claims to be the only acceptable model for the helpers’ explanations of Subud to candidates for membership.
I must confess that ‘Susila Budhi Dharma” always have fascinated me. I have even edited a translation of it into Norwegian (from a combination of different English translations of Bapak’s rendering into Indonesian; the original poem is in old Javanese). Many of the thoughts and ideas conveyed here are new to us because we have forgotten our cultural heritage. It is all in the Voluspá, the old Norse poem ‘The Revelation of the Prophetess’. As I see it, Bapak had not forgotten his cultural heritage. These ideas are still alive in rural parts of Java – ref. Barak Obama’s autobiography. He came to Java as a boy when his mother married an Indonesian, and tells how his stepfather believed that everything had a life force that influenced the life of man, also rocks and material objects. Such beliefs are common among those who belong to the ‘abungan’ people with a background of ancient Hindu and Buddhist traditions.
I also find many similarities between ‘Susila Budhi Dharma’ and the old Norwegian ‘Draumkvedet’, ‘The Dream Poem’, a mediaeval poem that was written down in the 1840es. The protagonist, Olav Aasteson, [Aaste was the mother of king Olav Haraldsson, St. Olaf] falls asleep on Christmas eve and sleeps until the thirteenth day of Christmas. Then he wakes, and rides to church to recount his dreams to the congregation, about his journey through the hidden realms of life. The poem has elements both from mediaeval Christianity and pre-Christian religious beliefs; it is St. Michael who blows the horn as the protagonist enters ‘Gjallarbrui”, the bridge between life and death.
The similarities? They are the mixture of “modern” and ancient beliefs, and that both are poems, short stanzas, easy to remember. Both poems are sung to a variety of traditional tunes. I like listening to ‘Draumkvedet’ both because of the content and the beautiful old tunes, and I can still remember members of Bapak’s family chanting from ‘Susila Budhi Dharma’ at the world congress in Sydney in 1989 – though I of course did not understand a single word of the text.
Does a poem convey truth? Yes, poetic truth. Mental pictures, ideas, insight, a glimpse of reality behind the veil, as in Reiner Maria Rilke’s poem “Wirklicher Wald”, or the broad feeling of how we are interwoven with and influenced by everything in and around us, as in “Susila Budhi Dharma’. But in the moment these glimpses of insight, of real wood, are frozen into a teaching, the thrill is gone, and we become easy prey for religion researchers.
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@Rikard
You have pointed out a real danger which faces Subud as it does all such movements.
Although Bapak said that Subud is not and does not embody a teaching - unless Subud members themselves get those glimpses of insight about reality then the risk is very great in falling into believing things Bapak related as absolute or objective truth.
Bapak also said "Experience First - then explanations" - without the experience the explanations cannot have any value, only in hindsight seen in the light of real direct experience - when we can say "aha - that is what he meant".
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Rikard,
Is Subud a teaching? Why so easy a question? Of course it is. Subud culture here in the West is based on what Bapak has said and he presents a worldview of his time and culture, that of a Javanese spiritual teacher who came of age in the first half of the 1900s. The assumptions of this worldview are also expressed in Susila Budhi Dharma, and are an animistic view of the world, where forces are ever present and influence humans.
I personally think the traditional Subud teaching is now a straightjacket that limits the appeal and spread of the latihan, so the questions that interest me are things like - can Subud culture become more aware of its own limitations and consciously choose to change, and is it possible for Subud to undergo a Reformation that rejects hierarchy and empowers individuals and groups.
I wrote a recent article for Subudvision, an introduction to the latihan, that talks about the need to develop self-awareness, especially of the unconscious assumptions we carry with us, and the nature and value of intention. For those interested, you can read it at this web address
http://www.subudvision.org/ah/Latihan as Spiritual Adventure.htm
I'm not sure what you mean when you say that Bapak had not forgotten his cultural heritage. I think that's obvious, or do you mean he is closer to the supertitions of his ancestors than we foolish and confused progeny of the European Enlightenment?
The idea that objective or literal truth is different from metaphorical or poetic truth, and that both are valid, was not talked about by Bapak. That 's an idea that makes sense and appeals to someone like me with my Enlightenment baggage. Instead Bapak passed on the stories he probably first heard from his Javanese grandmother, like the story of Anwar and Anwas.
Most Subud members probably think this fairy tale is objectively true. Please tell me I am wrong?
BTW, if someone is unfamiliar with this story, here's a link to David Week's article on Subudvision about it - http://www.subudvision.org/dw/Anwar.htm
In the European context, this fable would be analyzed and discussed as to the different possible meanings, and there would be an awareness that it comes from a certain cultural context and serves certain needs in that context. All we get in Subud are continual reprints of this and other parts of Bapak's talks from long ago - no discussion, none, just fantastic stories from the past about spiritual experiences and magical happenings, and a group of seniors who want to stay connected to the warm fuzzies from so long ago. Discussion and debate, being able to appreciate ambiguity and mystery, and making up your own mind, are all a sadly neglected part of the Subud "teaching". Exhibit A is "reminders of reality" which you can see at http://remindersofreality.weebly.com/
So are we easy prey for religion researchers? You bet, we are the odd little group that once thought it was going to transform the world, and then decades later, during its waning years, was stubbornly insisted that it's shrinking and disappearing was entirely up to God, all the while insisting that it wasn't a religion (because Bapak had once said it wasn't). We are ripe material for Monty Python.
Hadrian,
Who cares what Bapak says? I detest the Subud habit of people quoting Bapak and now Ibu Rahayu to confirm or support what they think. For me, Subud members obviously believe that what Bapak said is and was absolute truth. I think that train left the station long ago.
As for Bapak's statement about experiences first, then the explanations, I think one of the beliefs, or unspoken assumptions, that permeates the Subud "teaching" is the elevation of experiences as proof of saintliness. I wish Subud would place more emphasis on the core value that the major religions teach - compassion - towards oneself, towards your family and your neighbour. I think spiritual experiences come and go, and can easily be confused with what is coming up from your own psyche. Even if they do happen, frankly, does anything really matter other than how we treat each other? -
Anwar and Anwas.... Oh yes, here we go again.
Well now, I suppose that I am one of those who cannot remember which one is the good one, and which one is the bad one.... according to Bapak's 'teachings', or the 'teachings' of the Buddha guy. But, not having reached the 7th Subud level... or obtained enlightenment, I don't know the difference between the two anyway, if I am honest as to my actual awareness obtained by my own experience, and not by reading other peoples ideas, scholastic papers, lectures, or sacred bibles, sayings, receiving, explanations.
I have not been able to do any of the things like walking on water, or over hot stones. I have not gone without food for month's on end. I have not been able to defeat death in any way that I understand, but is seems is understood by others more well known as true examples of the greater faiths, and/or movements that humans have been glued to, or have identified with, as casual observer, or a serious practitioner.
Who knows, even if the Great Buddha and Bapak gave lectures at the same time, in the same hotel to the same general example of humans that we have here today... Would any one of us, via only being a person who sits in a chair, and hears someone talk, could ever know what was, or is their truth? Can their truth be gotten, or understood simply by reading, or listening to their talks?
Can I make any TRUE statements about Buddha, or Bapak, other that my casual observations, or my trust in someone else? No. I think not. I don't have their experience.... I have not done what they have done, and I am not them.
Having said the above, why would I trust you, Andrew? I don't even trust myself in matters such as you have chosen to challenge, dispute, or authenticate.
And, to debate this with you, would, for me be a useless waste of time, for I have no known followers, or know of anyone who would trust me to be their champion of debate, who might settle something for all to be satisfied by the resultant conclusions.
Regards,
farlan.. The Great Champion of Ice Cream Eaters Association of Cherry VannallahrasnudharmaBudhi, Local Chapter 12. At the present time there are only two members in this local group, and my wife hates cherries, thus making me the top dog and local Honsho, having authority above all others.
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Andrew,
“I'm not sure what you mean when you say that Bapak had not forgotten his cultural heritage. I think that's obvious, or do you mean he is closer to the superstitions of his ancestors than we foolish and confused progeny of the European Enlightenment?”
Yes, this is exactly what I mean to say; that the contents of Susila Budhi Dharma are old Javanese heritage. And yes, I am aware of the fact that this is the textbook example of animism. But when I mentioned Voluspá, ‘The Vision of the Prophetess’, I meant it as a comparison. Here are 9 realms, one within another, starting with the dwarfs and ending with the gods, and each realm has an inner and outer aspect. We tend to see only the outer, as did probably our ancestors, as there is no reason to believe that they were less superstitious than we are. There is a precious story of Thor (Donar) visiting Verland, the human world. Arriving at a sound, he commands the ferryman to row him over. “Does he not know who is standing before him?” “Oh, yes, everybody recognizes Thor. But sorry, no boat”. So Thor had to walk all the way around the fjord because he did not see that the stubborn ferryman was Odin (Woden), the incarnation of the inner man.
My point here is that Voluspá primarily is a description of forces within each one of us. In this sense they are true provided we recognize them. To make them into images to worship, as the heathen society does, is of course ridiculous.
As I see it, Susila Budhi Dharma is a great poem, perhaps of the same stuff as Genesis and the Volouspá are made of. It would be very interesting to see a direct translation of the original text into English. A Norwegian Subud member who lived in Indonesia for many years married an Indonesian woman who is not a Subud member. They later moved to Norway. Watching part of a Bapak talk on video in the Subud house, she several times shook her head over the translation: “No. This is not what he was saying.” Is it possible that our understanding and interpretation of Bapak’s words has been coloured by John Bennett’s rather old fashioned Christian language? The Islamic terminology came later, at the time when President Suharto and the early Islamist wave became dominant in Indonesia.
Hadrian,
“Experience first, and then the explanations”.
Dr. Pangarisan Paul Sitompul points to an old Javanese tradition in his doctoral dissertation on Subud (Clairmont University 1974): When a guru arrives at a village, the villagers will arrange a so called ‘latihan kejiwaan’. They assemble in groups of 40-50 people, men, women and older children together, and dance, jump, sing and shout. When they are all exhausted, they sit down to listen to the guru’s explanation of spiritual matters.
This is probably the reason why Bapak used the term ‘the latihan kejiwaan of Subud’, and stressed that the latihan kejiwaan as such was a practice that was the birthright of every human being. Subud is a registered organization, and the link to Bapak’s explanations is embodied in the mission statement. Consequently, there are only two ways of “reforming” Subud. One way goes through a long and elaborate process of resolutions to the World Congress; the other way means to abandon the name of Subud and establish a new organization. I fear that the latter option would result in an even smaller and weirder society than Subud of today.
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Farlan,
I am not asking for your trust, my brother. I am a bit confused about why you would say that. The only thing that any of us can expect in a forum like this is that we be respectful of each other and speak only for ourselves. We all have to make up our own mind.
You can speak for yourself but I see you as one of the many people whom Bapak obviously had an incredible effect upon and have tried and are trying to remain true and loyal to what you and they think they found. Good for you and them but that's not my reality.
I have no personal knowledge of Bapak, so that may explain a lot. But I imagine there are many people like me who knew Bapak but later became disillusioned and have either left Subud or remain peripherally involved for any combination of reasons - family, friendships, finding personal value in the latihan.
My own disillusionment has come from a number of causes. A big one for me is Bapak's statements about homosexuality, and Subud's response to them. I wrote about this in my first article for Subudvision - Reading Bapak's Talks. If you are interested, read it here -
http://www.subudvision.org/ah/Reading Bapak Talks.htm
If nothing else, that turned me off for good hearing people quote Bapak as some kind of ultimate authority.
A second cause of my disillusionment, what is animating me now, is coming to terms with my first encounter with religion as a child, growing up in the 1950s and 1960s, and seeing the same things happening in Subud. I want and need a Subud where belief has nothing to do with it, where I don't have to feel embarrassed or intellectually compromised about my chosen spiritual practice and community. So that is where I am mainly coming from at this time.
I am writing another article for Subudvision about this and hope to have it finished before the summer ends. I am finding it a bit tough going, confusing at times, and this tells me I am probably hitting close to the mark. Change and growth are never easy for me, they are often painful and slow.
So why am I still in Subud? Because I value the latihan and the personal connections. For me, they are worth keeping and investing in. As for defeating death, or having some special knowledge or preview of what it is like on the other side, I have nothing to offer you. But I'm not pretending that, am I?
I am still trying to come to terms with life in this world. I see death as a normal and healthy part of this life and we'll be returning to the earth in good time. I see no reason to get fussed by it. The only thing I wish for myself and others is to have a good exit from this life, a good death as it were. What happens afterwards, I am curious, but really know nothing and feel it is too easy to let my imagination run wild. How about you? -
Rikard, My only knowledge about Norwegian folk lore, or the like is shallow at best... but my having been a fan of some music that comes from the northern peoples, like Edward Grieg. Parts of his music have gone deeply into my feelings, and I never tire from listening to them. It seems as though there is something beyond one's beliefs, that only the artist has captured, if, in fact you can capture anything really universal, or lasting for yourself, or mankind in general.
Andrew, No, you have not asked for my trust, but you have made a case for it. And, if I had no reason to disbelieve you, I could have given myself up to your views, and ideas, as if you were more knowledgeable than I.
For the record, I have never been negative about Buddha or the people who have influenced me greatly as I was seeking more than what Christian emotionalism that surrounded the death of a holly man, when I began to learn about other ways, mostly eastern, including Buddhism. But then too, I only read about his desire for ending suffering and his love for peace.... and this was very meaningful for me. I had no idea how he came to this, but I had a similar desire already built into my nature, even as a child. As a young adult, I did make some feeble attempt to meditate, and I did like yoga, and that yoga stayed with me for a long time. But even though I liked these things, there was something missing, or yet to be found, and that longing continued in me.
I don't understand the true nature of the latihan, or of the Buddhist extremist who find powers bestowed upon them when they suffer near death, by their own effort. They do seem to want some benefit from all this suffering, and fasting from the pleasures of the earth. So, maybe God gives them what they want. I don't know.
Subud, on the other hand, says that if you want something, you only have to stop wanting it, and God will give it to you..... if it is truly right for you. Or, if you want to be filled with something good, you first have to become empty. And, unlike the Buddhist way, the Subud way is to give up any and all effort, and rest your case with the Creator.
Not actually knowing which way is the right one, if you are lazy like me and always looking for the easy way to do things, you may find Subud to be the simplest and easiest way. Frankly, I have trouble each year doing the Ramadan fast, let alone doing it for a lifetime.
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Farlan,
Re "... I don't understand the true nature of the latihan, or of the Buddhist extremist who find powers bestowed upon them when they suffer near death, by their own effort."
I guess you are talking about the Anwar/Anwas fairy tale and, like Bapak, you say you are confused and can't keep it straight who is the good guy and who is the bad guy. Must be comforting to be in the same league as Bapak, eh?
I think you and other Subud true believers should reconsider your slur about Buddhists as extremists. The hardest lesson for the Buddha to figure out as I understand it was that extreme asceticism or effort (as you put it, to the point of near death) was unnecessary and actually self-defeating. Moderation in your spiritual practice was the key, a lesson that Bapak probably might agree with. At least it appeals to me.
What I see in the Anwar/Anwas fairy tale is how it promotes the idea that extreme effort actually can deliver enormous powers, which to me just promotes superstition and fear. I have no use for something which does that. It is nonsense and needs to be called that, but if you are a superstitious Javanese villager, maybe it makes sense??
And then your final slur "Subud, on the other hand, says that if you want something, you only have to stop wanting it, and God will give it to you..... if it is truly right for you. Or, if you want to be filled with something good, you first have to become empty. And, unlike the Buddhist way, the Subud way is to give up any and all effort, and rest your case with the Creator."
I think the Subud teaching is a lIttle more nuanced about what effort is required - diligence in your latihan is often mentioned and the value of prihatin is stressed, which does seem to me to indicate some effort and focus. I grant you that there is this passivity and fatalism in Subud which is justified as part of surrender, but I find this to often be about avoiding responsibility. As for the Buddhist way, you really don't know what you are talking about. Better to stick with all this Bapak nonsense, eh?
Rikard,
Fascinating idea that the Susila Buddhi Dharma translations into English are misconstrued due to John Bennett's biases as well as the injection of Islamic terminology later on to avoid attention by the Indonesian Government. I am the last person who should judge it's merits as literature, but if people continue to read it as objectively true, I fear it will just perpetuate the Subud superstitions about the forces.
As for reforming Subud, change will happen because the older generation is dying off and in 10-20 years there will be far fewer members. In some places, there may be enough 2nd generation members to carry on, but it will disappear from most of Canada as it probably will in Norway. Given this prospect, reforming Subud to get rid of belief and superstition, seems like a sensible risk to take to me. I don't understand why you think it would be more weird than what we have now? In fact, perhaps we should start another thread - Subud without the weirdness! What would it look like? -
Heh Andrew... I really do not remember who is who.... Anwar/Anwas....
"As for the Buddhist way, you really don't know what you are talking about. Better to stick with all this Bapak nonsense, eh?"
Yes, and I prefer it not making any sense, because that in it's self would prevent the receiving in the first place. If I do have any sense of knowing anything, or confirming anything Bapak has said, I generally keep it to myself.... mainly because it may not make any sense to someone who has not received what I have..... thus... the nonsense. Whatever sense I do have is the best sense that I know of to date!
As I said, I have no personal dislike for the modern Buddhist religion, as I told you, I was very fond of it myself. But when I found Subud there was no need for the mind to be part of the latihan.... so I gave up all my past beliefs.... traded them in for the latihan... I still have no idea as to the truth of things borrowed from those ancient history stories like the Buddha, and the Hindu stuff. I have, in the past, read many books about Eastern beliefs... mostly forgotten now.... I even desired to become a Zen Buddhist at one time, but events, and a little bit or personal 'nonsense' entered the picture, and I was off to another idea, or belief......
Can you say you know more than I about the actual truth of these times..... ? Do you trust the tales that have been handed down generation after generation?
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Farlan,
Heaven forbid that you prevent any receiving by trying to think about things. That would be so unSubud. In my experience, using my mind has some use, and I don't think it prevents me from receiving at all.
But hey, if you don't think about things, then you can just sit there and groove on receiving the 'actual truth' about everything, right? Why read anything? Why do any research? You just need to receive the truth and using your mind just gets in the way.
Am I hearing what you say accurately? -
Yeh... that is close to my truth. I don't research the spiritual-religious things anymore, I just surrender that part of my life to God. I research the things that my mind can understand, if the knowledge is there, and I am looking for it. I think this is very normal, once you have found your spiritual path, religion, or meditation-enlightenment thing. I have found mine, and I hope you can find yours, if you are still looking for anything more than the latihan.... that is.
I did read your articles, and some other articles over at SV site. And I read "Anwar, Anwas, and Subud Prejudice" By David Week and his blog, where he was challenged by a very knowledgeable Subud member... after which David said that he was leaving Subud....
Is he is the son of Earling Week? I met Earling (spelling?) during a visit by Bapak many years ago, and I felt that he was in some kind of spiritual crisis at the time, so not much was gained from that encounter.
My guidance has not been about the things Bapak talks about, so I cannot compare myself in any way to him. My receiving in the latihan is still a wonderment, or not yet understood. But the guidance that I do have and understand is very clear, and mostly is about things material, and is of great use to me in my daily life. And it is this usefulness, and specific pointed guidance that is part and parcel of my life that is my proof of the latihan.
Before Subud I did have some dreams, and some other encounters with what you may call spiritual..... but never did I have the guidance that is ever present within me until I was opened. I have never received any guidance pro or con about the things we are considering here, at this time.
So, I don't just sit there, I do what everyone else does.... I get up, have my coffee, and go to work. And when I do the latihan, there is no reason to do anything but just sit there... or stand there, or move there.....awaiting the latihan to move me. Most of my day is filled with thinking and doing, with interruptions only when it comes from the jiwa, which I then trust even more than Bapak, because that is the way it is, and Bapak also said that is the way it should be....to stand on your own two feet.
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Farlan,
"I did read your articles, and some other articles over at SV site. And I read "Anwar, Anwas, and Subud Prejudice" By David Week and his blog, where he was challenged by a very knowledgeable Subud member... after which David said that he was leaving Subud...."
Can you point me to the blog post by David Week that you are referring to? Thanks. -
As to David's blog... I think it was somewhere within his article..... or in the comments area.... I have read no other items from him... so it must have been on SV site.
I found it looking at my browser history.
http://demystifyingsubud.wordpress.com/2007/12/11/was-pak-subuh-a-dukun/#more-28 -
Andrew: " I see death as a normal and healthy part of this life and we'll be returning to the earth in good time. I see no reason to get fussed by it. The only thing I wish for myself and others is to have a good exit from this life, a good death as it were. What happens afterwards, I am curious, but really know nothing and feel it is too easy to let my imagination run wild."
-- You don't get fussed by it. Good. But have you no curiosity about it? Your imagination doesn't have to run wild if you don't want it to. Do questions like, 'Why am I here' and the rest of that ilk not enter your being? How would the question as to why you are alive be answered by you with a true admission that you know nothing about death and that all your experiences might add up to nothing when you blink out? Is there only a social answer in that your contribution is for the benefit of the species? But then what about the fact - as close to a fact as a fact can be - that ALL species become extinct? Why did dinosaurs exist? If it is all meaningless, then lucky those species that are not self-contemplative. Fortunately or unfortunatly, we have the capacity to examine ourselves - why? -
Michael... Interesting questions....
I don't get fussed by the thoughts of death, but my imagination does, sometime, lead me into dark places (in my head only) that cause me to fear something, feel embarrased, or have some other negative emotional reaction.... even though I was the one who put myself in this state, it can last for a while.... until the inner self takes the upper hand and corrects me.
My inner self, so I believe, is already in the other life, and the material body that I call myself has, to some degree, given over to the prospect that what will continue will be that ever-present companion...jiwa... and...that will be the new, and improved me after the body dies.
Well, I can not say this is a fact, but I have no doubts about the companion guy, and as I am now 71, the inner self feels like a 17 year old! So, why would I not like to be 17 again..... Is this my imagination? Or is this the way it will be?
The inner self, for me... is not imagination.... I know this for sure. But after death, I can only guess what will happen. I don't have any visions of heaven, or imagine anything about this, but I do honestly feel less and less worried about the future, simply because of this other self that is always with me, and at times, it seems that It is me, or we become one-like, and I do feel young and healthy again.... for a while. This usually happens while I am surrendered in latihan, and fades somewhat after the latihan.
I do sometimes wonder, because I have personal guidance, why I don't have any wisdom like Bapak... and why I have never received much that one could call spiritual in nature... like knowing about forces, and the meaning of life.... the Holly books.... such things. My guidance is almost 100% in the area of day to day events. It is real cool, and I am thankful for this blessing, but there is very little of the stuff that Bapak talks about. And that is why I cannot give lectures as to the meaning of Subud. I can only refer to Bapak for that.
And, telling stories about myself may be interesting to some, but I don't think it can help anyone to receive in the latihan, or direct them, or help them in any way, other than sharing what material knowledge/wisdom I may have acquired over the years.
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Farlan: "The inner self, for me... is not imagination.... I know this for sure."
-- You have determined that your inner self is not something and that you know that something is imagination. What is imagination? Can you say what your inner self is? Many scientific materialists will say, as if it were fact, that your imagination is a product of your brain. Do you think it is and that the inner self is something else? Those same materialists would say, with as much conviction as you do, that your experience of an inner self is also a creation of your brain as a useful evolutionary tool for organizing your behaviour in the Earth environment. I don't expect you to agree with them but I need to ask you where does your conviction of 'knowing this for sure' come from. Is it not just an experience and if so what is doing the experiencing and how does this experience of conviction rank the grade of being 'for sure'. -
Michael,
RE:
"You have determined that your inner self is not something and that you know that something is imagination."
I have? I did not know that I have.
RE:
"What is imagination? Can you say what your inner self is? Many scientific materialists will say, as if it were fact, that your imagination is a product of your brain. Do you think it is and that the inner self is something else? Those same materialists would say, with as much conviction as you do, that your experience of an inner self is also a creation of your brain as a useful evolutionary tool for organizing your behaviour in the Earth environment. I don't expect you to agree with them but I need to ask you where does your conviction of 'knowing this for sure' come from. Is it not just an experience and if so what is doing the experiencing and how does this experience of conviction rank the grade of being 'for sure'."
I don't think that anyone can know about my experience with any conviction, except me. They can only speculate at a great distance.... like the moon having cheez wizz, ready for the taking. But when they get to the moon, and there is no such thing, they will imagine they were only kidding....and deny having ever said that.
You have two significant questions:
one about inner self, the other about imagination.
I am not sure I can answer them to your satisfaction, except in some metaphoric way.
1. Inner self:
If you were walking down the street and suddenly someone grabs your arm, pulls you away from coming traffic... and thus saves your life.... would you not care to befriend this person? I would make friends. ( But I don't think he is on Facebook, as far as I know) so I cannot pass this on to anyone else.
If you suddenly know something that cannot ordinarily be known... like some future event, and if feels like that person who saved your life is the is the source, would you not trust it?... especially if it comes true? I would trust it.
If this person then begins to go with you everywhere you go, and watches everything you do..... always, even in sleep, at work or while eating... would you not remain friends, or become inseparably? I have done that.
And, if you feel like that person is actually part of your greater self, would you not fall easily to the suggestions Bapak has given to us about the inner self being our guide, and spiritual teacher? I have done that, because it fits my experience.
Well, I could give other evidence, but that is all I can think of just now.
2. Imagination.
For me imagination is a thing that I can, with my own minds will power, invent in a fine and dandy way, or I can imagine something that actually frightens me, or haunts my conciseness. It is like a creation, a new, or used, borrowed, re-arranged memory, or a complete gobbygook mess. Or it could be a fantasy of flying, or sexual encounters, or eating food, or winning the lottery, and daydreaming about spending the money, and having lots of friends, and traveling the world. Anything goes, as they say. 'Imagine if all the people would give peace a chance'......etc.
One could also imagine that you had a secret friend that is invisible, and that friend is a playmate....... like we see in movies, where a child is alone, or neglected by parents, and invents things......for his emotional survival, or whatever is needed to fill the vacancy of siblings, or parental love...... Psychologist know about this kind of imagination. And they say it is sometimes a necessary thing for many children, until they grow up and can find true friends, and loved ones. Taken to the extreme, more serious symptoms my indicate the need for professional care. So imagination reaches deep into the lives of human beings. And it seems that we cannot do without some of it, or our lives would be uninteresting, or stagnant (for lack of better words)
I know that the research indicates that memory is also altered by the power of imagination.... that, so they say, fills the memory gaps, to present a complete picture of past events. And, if the story is repeated again, the mind may invent even more details that in time is considered a truthful and honest recall, even though it may be half imagined. Thus the legal difficulty in the trial court witness process. Think heaven for the spy-cams in convenience stores, they all say......The camera can't lie, or imagine what is not there.
RE:
"I need to ask you where does your conviction of 'knowing this for sure' come from. Is it not just an experience and if so what is doing the experiencing and how does this experience of conviction rank the grade of being 'for sure'."
Well, I will ask you to rank your surety as to how many hands do you have? Please apply the same notions you ask of me to your self.
I cannot play with words that don't fit my simple understandings, so I don't think about how I think, what is thinking, who is thinking..etc..... Actually, that sounds a bit childish to me, like one kid poking the other in the rib, just to get an emotional reaction.
Well, that is about all I can think of for now.
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Farlan,
Thanks for the link.
I looked at the blog post and the comments it attracted. My impression of David Week's article is that it seems pretty even handed. In the context of Pak Subuh's culture, I think some of the things he did such as offering healing potions and name changes could lead an outside observer to call him a dukun, a traditional healer. Why get fussed about it?
I loved the first comment, from Haskel Adamson, "all I can say is that Subud is a paradox when the exercise is based on has the aim of awakening and training the individual soul, but one man’s particular cosmology is taught as the basis of Subud. It’s hard to get my head around." But then, that's really the core of my complaints, isn't it - there is this wonderful technique called the latihan that is wrapped up in this mix of superstition and childish behaviors called Subud.
Then Iljas Baker takes issue and complains that David isn't making the distinction that Pak Subuh did that it was important to know the source of the dukun's powers. That depends, I guess, on whether you believe in any of this nonsense in the first place.
About David's reference to the dukun who gave Pak Subuh his name, Iljas says "Some of us used to think it was Khizr but Bapak stated that it was Sunan Kalijaga (alternative spellings apply), whom is considered one of the wali songo or nine saints responsible for spreading Islam throughout Java. He is definitely not to be confused with being a dukun." Now, how in God's name could a mythological figure appear in the real world, and how could Pak Subuh know as a baby who he was? Strange, very strange, and just as strange is that everyone in Subud just believed it because if Bapak said it, it must be true. The word I'm searching for is - embarrassing.
Then Iljas replies with what looks to me like a lot of bluster, accusing David of logical fallacies and then going on at length, including a quote from the poet Rumi, and says this "The fact that you don’t believe in the spiritual benefits of names or visitations of the dead simply means that you haven’t experienced these things and aren’t prepared to accept the opinions of others." I guess that's what it comes down to, eh?
There were two more exchanges between Iljas and David, David methodically laying out his case and Iljas petulantly going off on tangents about what Tibetan Buddhists do and insisting that David is missing the real point of the latihan. This all happened in the summer of 2009.
The blog then goes silent for two years and postings begin again in summer of 2011 when a Chilean member, Manuel, gets into an exchange with David and Iljas gets back into the game as well. I don't have much patience for Iljas who I think comes across as shrill and defensive but Manuel made a comment that I think actually enriched the exchange - "In my opinion, westeners -in Subud- have adopted many aspects of the javanese culture because our culture is so poor in symbols and misticism, opposed to javanese culture that is so rich in them. Of course, by doing this we sometimes look quite ridiculous. It´s obvious that many aspects of the javanese culture have permeated Subud, and some of them look quite weird to our western culture, rising suspiccion about Subud being one more of those strange and dangerous cults from the west, who promote the worship of a charismatic guru ,leading members to fanatism and mental dissorders.
I am with you in your efforts of purifying Subud from any animistic resemble, or any distortion in the way of the Subud latihan."
Manuel then says "But I just cannot share some of your appreciations about Bapak (or Subuh, if you prefer): he was a human being, of course, he had sickness, maybe even depressions, and weaknesses as any of us. He never pretended to be a god or a supernatural being. I guess some of us have builded the legend around Bapak because we feel more secure following some sort of super-man , or an infalible master." Bingo.
In his reply to Manuel, David says "I had a shining insight about Subud about two years ago: that Subud is exactly the way that it is because this is exactly what Subud members want it to be. People get what they want. I don’t want what Subud is, and therefore I’m out."
Farlan, this must be what you are referring to. You said about David's blog "he was challenged by a very knowledgeable Subud member... after which David said that he was leaving Subud...." This gives the impression that (1) Iljas is knowledgable, and (2) that David left Subud after being devastatingly rebutted by Iljas.
Let me offer my own comments. To me, Iljas comes across as mean-spirited and defensive. I wonder if this is because like many Subud members his self image has become identified with Subud. These people can't take any criticism or dispassionate discussion about Subud because it throws into question their own self image and choices in life. David's original blog post was not aggressive, it just looked at things Pak Subuh did, related them to some published scholarship, and asked some questions. Iljas replies with name calling dressed up as making debating points.
About David leaving Subud. I'm sure this was a long process. As a 2nd generation Subud member, actually growing up in Cilandek and with parents who were very close to Bapak, then marrying someone in a similar situation and raising a family together, David probably had a lot of stuff to deal with. I do know that David announced to the editors at Subudvision.org in January 2009, well before any of these exchanges on his Demystifying Subud blog, that he was severing all ties with Subud.
It may have nothing to do with it, but this announcement from David came after I posted the following on my blog about the World Congress then going on in Christchurch:
"A workshop on using writing to help discover yourself. Each participant is asked to write about some mistake they made, and then write about how they would do things differently. One of the participants is a mother of four and grew up in a prominent Subud family. When she was four, her father asked her what she wanted to be and she said an artist, so he encouraged her to draw him something everyday, which she did. Two years later, when she was six, her father asked her if she wanted to ask Bapak what her true talent was. She did and Bapak leaned back and said "an economist." She accepted this and went in that direction as she grew up, but was unhappy. Eventually, she had a breakdown. Now she realizes she should have pursued her interest in art.
That was the mistake. What would she do differently - she would have thanked Bapak but told him she was going to do what she felt she wanted to do.
Silence. Then denial. The next five people who spoke up all excused Bapak, or downplayed what had happened to her, or said what Bapak was offering was only a suggestion and it was her fault that she followed it. These people plainly couldn't accept hearing something which threatened something they have believed in for the past 40 years."
Let me end on a personal note. I miss David's contribution to attempts to reform Subud. To me, he has a towering intellect and this is reflected in the many articles he contributed to Subud Vision. David was never personal in his articles, unlike me who insists on making everything I write personal, but I learned a lot from David and I think others will find his articles useful in sorting out their own confusion about what is and is not worth keeping in Subud and passing on to the next generation.
I am glad to have this opportunity to respond to Farlan's comment about David Week. -
Michael,
Re "Do questions like, 'Why am I here' and the rest of that ilk not enter your being? How would the question as to why you are alive be answered by you with a true admission that you know nothing about death and that all your experiences might add up to nothing when you blink out? Is there only a social answer in that your contribution is for the benefit of the species?"
I think I said I am curious about what happens after death, so I'm not sure why this sparks such a response from you. Did this comment from me push a button for you? Why don't you share your own thoughts?
My feeling is that I don't know what happens after death but it's OK if nothing happens. I really am OK about it. What is important to me is what happens before I die. That I do know something about. And, if possible, I would like to have a good death.
I guess the bottom line is I don't really know. Can you live with this uncertainty? We really don't have much choice, do we? No, wait, we can believe what others tell us. Is that your choice? -
Farlan,
There are so many threads within each other that I almost forgot to comment on your comment of 22nd July about Anwar and Anwas. Like you, I could not remember the essentials of the story, but unlike you, I prefer scientific articles and exact knowledge if available. In this case there were a lot of papers, one of them under the following link:
http://epress.anu.edu.au/islamic/itc/mobile_devices/ch03s02.html
Here is a brief “plot outline” of the article: Adam and Eve had 40 children. Two of them, Syis and Delajah. had two sons, Anwar and Anwas. Unlike Anwar, who was born as a spirit and who set up his own religion after long contemplation and a long search for wisdom under the guidance of Idajil, the jinn, Anwas was born as a real human being, who followed the prophetic religion of his father and grandfather. He produced descendants some of whom were also prophets, including Muhammad. They passed on the religion of Allah to those willing to accept it.
The story id classified as an Indonesian Islamic creation myth, apparently invented to disparage Hinduism and Buddhism and promote Islam. Why Bapak kept telling this story is a mystery. Susila, Budhi, and Dharma, the three virtues that are embedded in the acronym SUBUD, are all of Hindu origin, an essential part of Javanese heritage.
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Andrew, Rikard... et all..
Thank you all for your comments. This thread is taking on subjects that are difficult at best and rarely aired as a civil, and respectful debate among people with widely differing ideas, and/or experiences.... yet I think we all have, and are having a meaningful go at it. And, for me I am finding more and more of a coming together, than a pulling apart.... and, If I may be so bold to say "Praise Allah" and I thank you all for your participation.
I am doing the fasting, and I, at first thought that I would drop out of this site for a while, so as not to cause any damage to my self or others. But now I somehow feel refreshed, and not at all what I presumed I would feel.
Wow, Andrew, your longer post read like a Well-Tempered Clavier. Thank you for you detailed and concise presentation. And I cannot think of any need to argue any particular point.
Rikard... Your post reminded of a story I put up on my website:
LINK: http://www.subudstories.info/farlan/interview.html
And I am constantly reminded of the importance to me personally, to first trust my own self.... with the help of Allah... first and foremost.
I know that I have appeared to be just another Bapakie, who would willfully bow down to his greatness. Yes, that is true. But it is not the mainstream of my being, or what is with me day and night. Bapak has, to my knowledge, never ever entered into my latihan state of awareness like some say that he visits them, and helps them along the way. I have none of this. I don't have other-world visitations or see angels dancing around in the latihan. Nope, none of this stuff. Well, I have had a bunch of dreams of Bapak, and other oddities of the spiritual kind. But I don't have this in latihan, or during my awakened times. I have had some inner feelings that might be called a connection to Bapak, where he has made gestures to me as I awoke from sleep. But it is not always clear as to what it means, or if it is really him.
Anyway, thanks to you all for letting me be myself, and let me repeat, I wish the same for all of you. God knows, we surely need some solid purpose, and a meaningful relationship with each other, before we can do what must be done... and hopefully do it together. -
Farlan,
Amen, brother. I appreciate the humility and generosity in your post. I hope I can be more like that. Blessings during the fast.
Andrew -
About your recent messages about Adam and Eve, Anwar and Anwas, etc… interestingly, even though some scientists (eg: darwinists) suggest that all humans have evolved from ape-like ancestors, they probably have not found yet why this could be true to only some of us (may be most of us but not all of us).
Until recently,... when Adam and Eve descended to show themselves and to answer some questions regarding the stories about them.
One of the questions asked from the audience was exactly about how Adam sees this ape-like ancestry theory… Adam got then a bit shy, looked at his Eve, who put down her look… and then after a moment of silence Adam asked the audience a rhetorical question of how he was supposed to live before he had gotten Eve as his partner?… and then even afterwards… well….
After this confession, Eve looked boldly at Adam and… she also confessed that well… Adam was not always fully satisfying man…
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Andrew; "I guess the bottom line is I don't really know. Can you live with this uncertainty? We really don't have much choice, do we? No, wait, we can believe what others tell us. Is that your choice? "
-- I, also, don't really know. That is why I call myself an Agnostic. I have to live with the uncertainty. We do have a choice. We can choose to believe that another person knows more than we do and that what s/he says is 'the truth'. I did that until 1996 after I had made a determination to 'drill down'. Once the fault of that choice showed itself, it just kept unravelling.
Andrew: "My feeling is that I don't know what happens after death but it's OK if nothing happens. I really am OK about it. What is important to me is what happens before I die. That I do know something about. And, if possible, I would like to have a good death."
-- For me it is not OK to not know. Unless I know that I don't really know how to direct my life - or not direct it. I don't know what a good death is because I have no criteria to apply to it. If you are referring to the life immediately before death, then I want that to be good. I don't want to be trapped under a fallen building in agony before I die. But that is not death. -
Michael,
I like the death of Maximilian Kolbe... death of empathy and of dignity.
Jan -
Jan, that means nothing to me. I don't mean I'm not interested. I just mean it means 'nothing'.
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Jesus lamented that the Jews had become 'men of the book'. Then his followers chose a small biased collection of Jesus stories which became the next 'book'. Alternative accounts were deemed heretical and heretics were persecuted. It's happened over and over and we're doing it again in Subud. This is particularly ironic as Subud's special feature is the direct contact with the inner life. This makes gurus and bibles unnecessary but we still insist on having them. Is there any way out of this dead end course?
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I think becoming aware of our assumptions is key. It all begins with consciousness - whether that is awareness of our confusion, pain, faults, needs, missed opportunities or whatever.
I think for Subud some of the original assumptions revolved around the ideas that a mysterious Man from the East would bring something mysterious or magical to us in the West, that our own religious heritage here in the West was lacking or hollow, that people lacked the ability to discern the truth unless they became spiritually alive, that becoming spiritually alive required the transmission of something special that came from God or from people chosen by Him, that the exact words matter and are magical, and that using the mind was not only inadequate but possibly an impediment in receiving the Grace of God.
The assumptions that I think I see active now in Subud include these original assumptions plus more current ones - that our own spiritual ability is inadequate and not to be trusted so it is best to rely on the original source (Pak Subuh), that whatever is happening is up to God and we shouldn't try to influence it, that Subud may have failed but it is because we didn't live up to Pak Subuh's expectations for us, that while we may be failures the core of Subud is still pure and resides in Pak Subuh's home and family, that there is something magical and still to be discovered in Subud's mission in Kalimantan, that it's still not too late to turn things around and do what Pak Subuh envisioned with enterprises, and that harmony is paramount and requires ignoring anything that makes us upset or challenges us.
As Sahlan Diver points out in his excellent article on Subud Vision, "In Subud, We Have No Beliefs", there are many, many beliefs active in Subud. For those interested, see it here - http://www.subudvision.org/sd/No Beliefs.htm
I wouldn't be too harsh about all of this, turning the teachings of the founder into a canon of rules and the only reliable source of the original teaching is something that has happened many times before with other groups and religions. Subud is just repeating the same pattern. In many ways, we aren't that special, we are a rather typical cult trying to come to terms after the death of its charismatic founder and preserve the same hierarchical structure that he put in place. -
Good description, Andrew.
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I have no idea how many members of this forum are acquainted with a valuable analysis put forth by Michael Rogge way back in '89. The link to the page is below. The page contents are too long to be able to post in one go (because of word restriction per post), indeed it would take several posts to reproduce all the contents, so easier just to put the link up.
The one thing which has changed for the better since '89 is the availability of the Subud 'word' on the internet. Things like the decline in membership, and the chronically ageing membership in the West, have got much worse.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~wichm/Xroads.html
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The Hopes and Fears of All The Years, dah-dah-diddy-doo-dah-dah:
"I will therefore summarize my own impressions and convictions.
Firstly, Subud does work. I have not been writing about some ingenious
theory as to how mankind could be saved, but about a process that I
see working from day to day. Secondly, Subud is supremely easy to
enter. It is only required that one should receive the necessary
explanations, wait three months and then ask. Everyone that sincerely
asks can receive the contact. Thirdly, Subud gives positive results in
every sphere of human life: in physical health, in family and social
relationships and, most significantly, in the spiritual and religious
experience of man. Fourthly, Subud is open to all without restrictions
of race, creed or condition. It requires no preparation and no special
qualifications. Fifthly, Subud has an unlimited capacity for
expansion, and its rate of progress will be limited only by the number
of people who ask for the contact.
"These are practical points that matter for any earthly undertaking.
Subud is more than an earthly undertaking — it is the way to Abodes
that are far higher than the earth, and Abodes, moreover, to which we
human beings rightly belong.
"Subud will expand just as fast as it is God's Will that it should do
so. If it is to move very rapidly, indications will be sent that will
attract the interests and hopes of many people. If the process is to
go slowly, it will pass from friend to friend, from parents to
children, until its value is demonstrated by results that cannot be
denied. A philosophy is tested by its consistency and adequacy; a
moral teaching, by its conformity with our intuitions of right and
wrong; a religious dogma by its power to establish and hold the faith
of millions. But a process can be tested only by results. Subud is a
process, and it must submit to the ultimate test: "By their fruits ye
shall know them — do men gather grapes of thorns or figs of thistles?"
J G Bennett
Concerning Subud
1958 2nd Edition, Hodder and Stoughton, London
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A crushing analysis of Subud, made some years ago, in reply to someone's observation about the rip-off consequences of Subud's belief in 'magical thinking'. I have to keep the proponent anonymous, because I don't think he takes kindly to his views being disseminated (God only knows why). I often don't agree with this guy, in fact I've fallen out with him, but I often still like his analyses. They have value, even if one is still, like me, basically a Subud trubie:
'I largely agree with your sentiments here. But I would add a few
observations and render my particular take on things. Firstly, the
relocation of the Bank from Germany to Jakarta: one of the constant
currents one finds in the letters, diaries and texts from those
times was Indonesian people asking Bapak why he was letting
foreigners have all the plum opportunities in Subud. I'm not
convinced that this and other decisions of a similar dubious nature
were actually driven by magical thinking, but by obvious thinking,
and then subsequently justified to some of the membership on a
magical basis. The difference between the two is very important. I
also think some of the of the least sound magical thinking inherited
by some Subud people is exactly this kind of balderdash, to cover a
baser reality, passing itself off as a wisdom from a higher reality.
Secondly, my background is strongly in theoretical mathematics,
rather than philosophy or theology. I find almost all theological
debate so imprecise as to be incomprehensible. I have the kind of
mind that reduces such debate to a proposition of the form x is y or
x is not y, where x and y are both unknowns, so there can never be a
conclusion. I'm also very wary of Goedel's laws of axiom; some
issues cannot be resolved by the mind and the mind has to know that
fact. For me magical thinking is rather like imaginary numbers –
values that contain both a real and a non-real part. You can
actually do mathematics with unreality, but the objective is to
always return a result contained wholly in the real part. Any
decision, thought or conclusion arrived at by magical thinking which
is completely and wholly sensible in the real world, is perfectly
good. It's the justification of unreasonable things in the real with
magical thinking that stinks.
For me the dipstick of wisdom is reasonableness. I don't have any
problem with Subud people who want to believe in forces, levels,
nafsus and sukmas, or even in the grace of the little green goblin,
as long as they don't unreasonably force their delusions onto
others: "There aren't any teachings, be sure that you read them;
there aren't any leaders, so don't disobey them; there aren't any
fees, so kindly please pay some." Subud is a cult of unreason: you
can't negotiate with it, reason with it, meet it half way, or
convince it by argument to be otherwise. A non-Subud financier wrote
in a letter once that nobody, particularly banks, could ever do
business with Subud because its members enter into agreements
without foresight or forethought and then renege upon them without
compunction, hesitation or remorse "because God told them to".
Whatever this has to offer the world beyond enriching a handful of
moral cretins and psychic vampires is beyond my understanding.'
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Yes. The problem in Subud is not that individuals hold beliefs - whether religious, scientific or magical - but the pressure to conform to other's beliefs. This pressure is often IMPLICIT.
For example if someone asks in a group test ' How would God have me respond to such and such?' I feel deeply uncomfortable. Not only because it assumes/imposes a belief in God (and a number of my Subud friends do not hold to this), but also because it presumes that God has a personal interest in how each of us responds to such and such.' A lot of people who base their lives on God or a higher power are not in tune with such a presumption. I for one. I value the everyday resources which help people to to make decisions - curiosity, consultation, logic, common sense and intuition. I feel irritation when things that can be figured out in a down to earth way are tested using such grandiose words. I don't believe that God minds if I paint my wall green or blue so long as I make a decision and follow it through.
But in promoting testing as an everyday oracle we abdicate our responsibility and foster a priesthood of Expert Testers who need regular clients to maintain their special status. Unfortunately some of these are getting seriously out of touch with the real world, in the way that certain shamans or gurus become very identified with their power and status. This leads to arrogance.
Something Marcus recently said made the penny drop for me. Sorry for this rant, but I see Subud's biggest challenge as arrogance.
Of course, I can be arrogant and may be part of the problem, but the remedy is to encourage diverse views, to notice pressures to conform (even implicit ones) and to allow individuals to differ in their views and the language they use. This, in my view, is a road to community health for Subud. Discussions and forums are a part of this process.
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